Ford Wants Witnesses to Testify. Transcript: 09/19/2018. the Last Word with Lawrence Odonnell

Date: September 19, 2018

Guest: Kristine Lucius, Lisa Graves, Cecile Richards

LAWRENCE ODONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel.

December 18th was going to be a Christmas shopping night for me, but, OK,

Ill be here. I will be here December 18th. Thats in.

Rachel, you know what, Ive got to say I was taking some notes here. And

when you said the highest ranking member of the Trump administration to

plead guilty, I was so deep in Kavanaugh that I said what and had forgotten

about this name named Michael Flynn. Brett Kavanaugh has taken up that

space.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST, “TRMS”: I know. You know, and between now and

December 18th, were going to get all sorts of interesting filings around

his sentencing in which prosecutors will tell us in public facing documents

how much he has cooperated. So, were between now and when he gets

sentenced were about to learn a lot about how Flynn has factored in this

case. Which should be interesting in terms of understanding where Mueller

and his team is at.

ODONNELL: Weve now embarked most of an hour discussing the lies the

members on the Senate Judiciary Committee are now trying to sell to the

public, and Ive got a couple of former Senate Judiciary Committee staffers

to help me with that. So, thats what were up to.

MADDOW: Well done, my friend. Thanks, Lawrence.

ODONNELL: Thank you, Rachel.

Well, tonight, Senate Republicans are trying to bully a woman into

testifying to the Senate Judiciary Committee on their terms. And the terms

the Republicans are offering Professor Christine Blasey Ford are worse,

they are worse than the terms that same Senate Judiciary Committee offered

to Professor Anita Hill in similar circumstances 24 years ago. And theres

no other word for it, Im sorry, theres no word for what Republican

chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Chuck Grassley, is trying to do to Dr.

Ford. It is the Senates version of bullying.

Senate chairman have bullying powers. And Chuck Grassley is trying to use

his. Chuck Grassley is desperately trying to create public rationales for

what he is doing that sound reasonable. But they only sound reasonable if

you know absolutely nothing about Senate procedure, Senate committee

procedure and the history of Chuck Grassleys own Judiciary Committee, and

most importantly Chuck Grassleys personal history.

Most Republican members of the Senate do not understand Senate procedure,

in fact. In fact, Democrats either. They do not understand Senate

Judiciary Committee procedure, not really. And they do not understand

Senate Judiciary Committee history, very few of them do. And only one of

them knows Chuck Grassleys personal history with this subject.

And that is the 84-year-old Republican Senator Orrin Hatch who sits beside

the 85-year-old Chuck Grassley in the Senate Judiciary Committee now. They

are the two Republicans on committee who have been here before. They are

the two Republicans who personally bullied Professor Anita Hill when she

came before that same committee to testify against Clarence Thomas

nomination to the Supreme Court by a Republican president because she said

he had committed repeated acts of sexual harassment against her in the

workplace and elsewhere.

They are the only two Republicans still sitting on that committee 27 years

later. Twenty-seven years after disgracing themselves when Anita Hill

testified to the committee. Theyre still there. Anita Hills accusations

against Clarence Thomas were investigated by the FBI. And at the time

everyone thought that was a reasonable thing to do, it was the only thing

to do.

And the FBIs investigation only took a couple of days. No one said we

dont have time for an FBI investigation. And no one said that because no

one would have believed it back then. It would have been like standing up

in the Senate and saying the earth was flat. Everyone in the Senate knows

there is no deadline for a committee confirmation vote and there is no

deadline for a confirmation vote by it full Senate.

Chuck Grassley is trying now to pretend there is some kind of deadline that

does not allow the time for an FBI investigation that we know only takes a

couple of days. And the very best witness against Chuck Grassley on this

lie is Chuck Grassley.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY (R), IOWA: When the chairman of the Judiciary

Committee and when the ranking member of the Judiciary Committee learned of

these allegations, the FBI was immediately ordered to conduct an

investigation. That investigation was completed before the Senate

Judiciary Committee voted on Friday, September 27, 1991.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: Chuck Grassley.

When the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, when ranking member of the

Judiciary Committee learned of Anita Hills accusations the FBI was

immediately ordered to conduct an investigation. And Chuck Grassley

thought that was exactly the right thing to do back when he was a junior

member of the Judiciary Committee.

Orrin Hatch was on the Judiciary Committee when Anita Hill testified. And

he could not resist pouring over the details publicly over the pornography

that Anita Hill says Clarence Thomas told her about at work. Senator Hatch

gained enough seniority in the Senate to eventually become chairman of the

Judiciary Committee before he moved on to become chairman of another

committee.

And here is what Orrin Hatch said about the FBI investigation of Anita

Hills accusations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: Chairman Biden and the ranking member Thurman,

when they heard about this the first time, they immediately ordered this

FBI investigation, which was a very right thing to do. Its the

appropriate thing to do. They did what every other chairman and ranking

member have done in the past. And the investigation was done and it was a

good investigation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: They immediately ordered this FBI investigation, which was a

very right thing to do. That is kind of uniquely Orrin Hatch verbiage. A

very right thing to do.

Its the appropriate thing to do. They did that. They did what every

other chairman and ranking member have done in the past and what Orrin

Hatch said there was true. It was true then. Its true now, but Orrin

Hatch wont say it now.

Now, when these two old men of the Senate, Orrin Hatch and Chuck Grassley,

lie to us now, they lie as if they dont know that the video still exists.

They lie as if they have forgotten there is a congressional record of every

word theyve ever spoken on the committee and on the Senate floor. Chuck

Grassley and Orrin Hatch both believed that an investigation that only

lasted a few days was the appropriate thing to do in response to Anita

Hills accusations. And now, theyre saying theres no reason to do that

before hearing Dr. Fords testimony.

This means that Senator Grassleys investigation to Dr. Ford to testify to

the committee is being issued with malice. Chuck Grassley wont even give

her what he thought was appropriate for Anita Hill. Before he then abused

Anita Hill. He personally did in that hearing. And we saw what they did

to Anita Hill. We saw what those Republican senators did to Anita Hill

when she came into their hearing room.

Dr. Ford says Brett Kavanaugh sexually assaulted her, tried to rape her,

she believes. Brett Kavanaugh says that never happened, nothing like that

ever happened. One of them, one of those two people wants the FBI to

investigate and the other one doesnt.

Why isnt Brett Kavanaugh demanding an investigation? Why? Why not? Why

doesnt (AUDIO GAP) to submit to the best (AUDIO GAP) investigators we

have, and why does Dr. Ford want to submit to an investigation by the FBI?

Why does she want to do that? And why do the Republicans on the Senate

want to save Brett Kavanaugh from ever facing an FBI question about this?

Every reason that they give is a lie – every single reason. You just saw

Orrin Hatch say its the appropriate thing to do. You saw Chuck Grassley

say that that is exactly what was done when the Judiciary Committee learned

about Anita Hills accusations against Clarence Thomas.

The Republicans on the Senate Judiciary Committee and all of the

Republicans in the Senate, all of them, every one of them, every single one

of them is now lying about not needing an FBI investigation. That is a lie

that every single Republican in the United States Senate has now agreed to

tell.

Why should Dr. Ford accept worse conditions issued to her with malice for

her Senate testimony than what the very same committee gave to Anita Hill?

Chuck Grassley is pretending that he has given Dr. Ford options, the option

to testify privately, which is not something shes requested or the option

to testify publicly. Thats the way of pretending that Dr. Ford has some

menu of multiple choice in front of her about how to do this, but the

option she wants is more time because she and her family have essentially

become fugitives trying to avoid the glare of this story and the death

threats that come with it. And she wants what Anita Hill got.

She wants an FBI investigation. She wants a basic, decent approach to this

subject first by the FBI. Chuck Grassley wont do that. Chuck Grassley

says no FBI investigation.

And the only possible time on the calendar that exists for this is Monday

at 10:00 a.m. No other time is possible. And in his bullying letter today

to Dr. Fords lawyers, Chuck Grassley demanded something even more

impossible to comply with, even more bullying under these circumstances

than the Monday 10:00 a.m. appointment in Washington 2,500 miles away from

her home.

In the last line of Chuck Grassleys letter to Dr. Fords lawyers, Chuck

Grassley says Dr. Fords prepared testimony and biography are due to the

committee by 10:00 a.m. on Friday, September 21st, if she intends to

testify on Monday. Chuck Grassley is demanded Dr. Fords full written

testimony by 10:00 a.m. on Friday of this week so that he and the committee

members can have it all weekend and of course start leaking it at 10:00

a.m. on Friday morning.

Chuck Grassley didnt expect to be here. Even when Dr. Fords accusations

first became public, he was still sure he was going to be able to hold a

vote on this nomination tomorrow. Chuck Grassley began this week along the

rest of the Senate Republicans believing they were going to have a vote on

this nomination tomorrow.

Chuck Grassley began this week, along with the rest of the Senate

Republicans, believing that they were going to have the committee vote on

this nomination tomorrow. They believe that they would not have to delay

anything, and they were wrong. They were wrong about what was going to

happen next.

Chuck Grassley now thinks he knows whats going to happen next. But Chuck

Grassley has misjudged the strength of Dr. Christine Blasey Ford every step

along the way to where we are now.

And so, we – we know now how strong and how smart Dr. Ford is in the way

she has handled herself this week and dealt with this committee – her very

first week of public life in America.

But heres what we dont know. How stupid is the American news media?

This is one of those times we have to ask that question. And I dont mean

Fox News. I mean reporters and media organizations who should know better.

How many of them will stick their mic microphones out there and let Chuck

Grassley get away with any lie he wants to tell about there being no time

for an FBI investigation?

This is when voters need the news media because voters cannot drop

everything theyre doing at work and rush to Washington and occupy the

halls of the Russell Senate office building or the Dirksen Senate office

building and tell those senators how they people. It is the Washington

press corps now that has a job to do and its an important job and only

they can do it. And that job is not to simply facilitate and pass along

the outright lies of Chuck Grassley and Orrin Hatch and now all of the

Republican senators who are all lying about the fact that theres no time

for an FBI investigation.

The news medias job now is to penetrate and expose that lie. That is a

lie. And any member of the news media who accepts that lie unchallenged by

any Republican member of the Senate is complicit in that lie.

The chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee is on his way to committing

a crime against the truth in his committee. And Im no longer sure that

Chuck Grassley even knows that. Im no longer sure Chuck Grassley has any

memory of a single word he said during the Clarence Thomas hearings.

I worked with Chuck Grassley when I was on the Democratic staff for the

Senate Finance Committee in 1990s. And on that committee, Chuck Grassley

was always reasonable, if occasionally cantankerous participant in the

committees work, and he almost always voted against everything I was

trying to move through that committee, but I never doubted Chuck Grassleys

integrity and his work on the finance committee at that time. But I am

sorry to say Chuck Grassley has stayed in the Senate way too long.

Listen. Listen to this. Listen to the very first words that Chuck

Grassley, the chairman of the Judiciary Committee, spoke today when he was

asked why he opposed an FBI investigation this time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRASSLEY: Just so you guys and gals all understand – maybe Im supposed

to say guys and gals, maybe I better say men and women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: Yes, senator Grassley, its 2018. We call them women now.

Joining our discussion now, Kristine Lucius, a former staff director for

the Senate Judiciary Committee. Shes the executive vice president of the

Leadership Conference.

And Lisa Graves, co-director of documented. Shes a former chief counsel

for nominations for the ranking member of the Senate Judiciary Committee on

the Democratic side. She was deputy assistant attorney general in the

Department of Justice.

And, Kristine, thank you very much for joining us tonight. Lisa has been

with us before, and I – it is just the time when we need the expertise of

former staffers on the Senate Judiciary Committee to guide us through where

we are now.

And I want to get your reaction to the Republicans on this committee all

now including Jeff Flake who seem to be sounding reasonable earlier in the

week holding onto this position theres absolutely no time for an FBI

investigation.

KRISTINE LUCIUS, FORMER STAFF DIRECTOR, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE:

Lawrence, I think youre right. I think its absurd. And as you said at

the contrast, as bad as Anita Hill was treated by the Senate Judiciary

Committee in 1991, Dr. Blasey Ford is being treated even worse by Chairman

Grassley and for two reasons. You noted one of the reasons, which is she

asked that the FBI do its investigation first. And the tapes that you just

ran show that Senator Grassley and Senator Hatch both talked about that

being a long-standing precedent, that being the obvious first step and

exactly what needs to happen next.

Regardless, Chuck Grassley is denying Dr. Blasey Ford that, and apparently

the administration is denying it as well. And I think that will cause a

lot of people to wonder why? Why dont they want the FBI to go out and

investigate these claims? Dr. Blasey Ford wants to investigate it.

But the second thing that Chairman Grassley is doing to treat her even

worse than Anita Hill is he is saying that only two people can testify,

only Dr. Blasey Ford and Brett Kavanaugh. That is worse treatment than

Anita Hill received. There were outside witnesses that she was able to

call that corroborated her account.

They are not allowing Dr. Ford to do the same thing, which really shows

what are they hiding? It really causes that to come into light, that, you

know, as bad as Anita Hill was treated, that theyre doing even worse to

Dr. Blasey Ford, and the question is why? What are they hiding?

ODONNELL: I want to read Dr. Fords lawyers response to Senator Grassley

tonight. Issued a statement saying the committees stated plan to move

forward with a hearing that has only two witnesses is not a fair or good

faith investigation. There are multiple witnesses whose names have

appeared publicly and should be included in proceeding. The rush to a

hearing is unnecessary and contrary to a committee discovering is truth.

And, Lisa, as Christine just said and a point Ive made, they are offering

Dr. Ford much worse terms, much worse circumstance than they offered Anita

Hill. And we know how badly the Anita Hill hearing went, and you would

think that this committee had learned something from that, but it seems

like what they learned from it was dont even be as fair to the witness as

we were to Anita Hill.

LISA GRAVES, FORMER STAFFER, SENATE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Well, its really

shocking as Christine said and as youve pointed out, theyve concocted

some idea that its unprecedented to seek FBI, a follow-on set of work by

the FBI, supplemental investigation to examine this when their own words

reveal how false those statements are. And the Department of Justice is

complicit in echoing them, that this is somehow outside the purview of the

background investigation.

Kristine and I between us have read hundreds of FBI files. We know this is

not how the process works. The American people are being lied to by

Senator Grassley about this process. And I was shocked to hear him say

this was some sort of separation of powers issue, that they couldnt

commandeer the executive branch to do this investigation.

The fact is theres never been a time in which a ranking member and

chairman have not agreed to request information in circumstances like this

where further investigation is obviously necessary. And Lord knows that

Brett Kavanaugh has time on his hands. He spent the last three days

ensconced at the White House doing murder board basically to try to figure

out what hes going to say, what level of umbrage hes going to take, how

hes going to answer questions about something he claims not to know about.

He could have been interviewed already.

But the chairman is seemingly standing in the way of that precedent and

lying to the American people about this and presumably to other members of

that committee. Jeff Flake is being sold a bill of goods if he believes

Senator Grassley about the president on this committee. Whats

unprecedented is to have this matter not go back to the FBI for further

investigation by people who are professionals and know how to do just that.

ODONNELL: And, Kristine, were now seeing in effect Jeff Flake and Susan

Collins gang up on Dr. Ford saying, well, of course she should show up on

Monday at 10:00 a.m., as if theres absolutely no other space on the

calendar for this.

LUCIUS: Yes, its absurd that this would have to happen next Monday. What

would happen in the normal course of a bipartisan process is that the chair

and ranking would work with the witnesses to make sure that they could make

it.

What I found surprising this week is you had Chairman Grassley announce

that she was coming when we now know that there was no agreement, there was

no back and forth discussion with her to accommodate this survivor of

sexual assault. So it just seems like a completely different process than

Lisa or I were involved in when we worked on the committee.

And one other point Id like to make. You mentioned your experience,

Lawrence, when Senator Grassley was on the finance committee when you were

there. My experience with Senator Grassley when I was on the committee is

he was really independent, he was principled, he kept his word, and also he

likes to really protect whistleblowers.

What I am surprised about here is how he is treating what I consider to be

a whistleblower, which is Dr. Blasey Ford, risking everything to come

forward and tell her story. And hes not treating her with the same accord

that I saw him treat whistleblowers over the years I worked in the

committee.

So, its particularly surprising to me because how hes acting in this

instance, because I have seen him over the years be very protective of the

confidentiality or the need for protection for whistleblowers who are

risking their careers and their privacy to come forward to inform the

committee.

ODONNELL: And, Lisa, I want to get your reaction about that and your

personal view of both Senators Grassley and Hatch. And I want to throw in

parentheses here, in the Senate Finance Committee, where I worked with both

of them. I have to say it was a very good working relationship. They were

on the other side of almost all the issues, but they were responsible and

everyone thought they were solid, responsible Republicans on that side of

the table.

And we never had the slightest reason to question their integrity about

anything. Its a very different environment and intentions. So, it

disappointments me greatly to be saying these things about either one of

them and to be saying it about both of them bothers me a lot.

But, Lisa, tell me about your experience with both Senator Grassley and

Senator Hatch.

GRAVES: Well, having observed them up close, what I can tell you is

whatever solicitousness they display in trying to reach a compromise in

legislation, on the issue of judicial nominations, theyve adopted an

extremely hard line. That hard line has basically either forced them or

compelled to break rule after rule after rule in order to force these

judges on the court, on the lower court level, as well as now for the

Supreme Court vacancy.

When it comes to the judicial appointments process, no rule is allowed to

stand in their way, no history, no precedent, no practice. And theres

some irony there, where you have a person being chosen to go the U.S.

Supreme Court to interpret our laws being put on the court potentially in

violation of almost every norm and practice and precedent of the Senate and

Senate Judiciary Committee.

ODONNELL: Lisa Graves, and Kristine Lucius, thank you very much for

joining us tonight. We really need your expertise on this. We really

appreciate it. Thank you very much.

LUCIUS: Thank you so much.

GRAVES: Thank you.

ODONNELL: And when we come back, the president attacked his attorney

general again today, no doubt with the attempt of firing him after the

midterm elections.

And Cecil Richards will join us with her experience testifying to hostile

Republicans in Congress and what that means for Dr. Christine Blasey Ford.

And later, more on the investigation that Brett Kavanaugh and his

Republican supporters seem to be so very, very afraid of.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ODONNELL: Brett Kavanaugh has been accused of perjury in his confirmation

hearing when he answered questions about his involvement in e-mails that

were stolen from the Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee and

provided to Brett Kavanaugh when he was working in the Bush White House.

The whole truth and nothing but the truth is not exactly Brett Kavanaughs

style as a witness in his confirmation process. The committee asked for

all of Brett Kavanaughs speeches and he gave them those speeches including

a written copy of a speech that he delivered at Catholic University Law

School.

But he left out what is now a very important lie. No now, was that lying

to the committee to leave out that lie? Was that just an oversight?

Here it is. You decide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRETT KAVANAUGH, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: Three classmates of mine

at Georgetown Prep were graduates of this law school in 1990 and are

really, really good friends of mine, Mike Bidwill, Dan Urgo, and Phil

Merkle, and they were good friends of mine then and are still good friends

of mine as recently as this weekend when we were all on e-mail together.

But fortunately, we had a good saying that weve held firm to this day as

the dean was reminding me before – before the talk, which is what happens

at Georgetown Prep stays at Georgetown Prep. Thats been a good thing for

all of us I think.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: And that was not in the written version of the speech that he

gave to the committee, what happens at Georgetown Prep, stays at Georgetown

Prep. Thats been a good thing for all of us, he said. That wasnt in

there.

Today, the former president of Planned Parenthood tweeted this: Any woman

has been called before a Republican led panel knows its not about fact-

finding. Its political theater masquerading as a search for the truth.

Joining us now, Cecile Richards, former president of Planned Parenthood.

Cecile, you better than most people know what Dr. Ford is in for if she

does raise her right hand and take the oath and testify to this committee.

What would you be telling Dr. Ford tonight about whats coming?

CECILE RICHARDS, FORMER PRESIDENT, PLANNED PARENTHOOD: Well, I mean, I

think she is fully aware. I think this is woman obviously thinking about

what she does. And I have respect for her and how she handles herself. I

just know just in the four hours I spent before a Republican committee that

it was not a fact-finding hearing. It was not an effort to get to the

truth. It was actually an opportunity for members of Congress to preen and

strut before the TV audience, and frankly to try to humiliate me and other

women who have come before them.

That is – thats the dynamic, and I think thats why, of course, the irony

that they are refusing to allow the FBI which actually is a fact-finding

organization and agency to investigate this matter makes it even more

suspicious to me. I think what theyre really trying to do is setup

political theater, and shes very smart to be careful how she goes about

this.

ODONNELL: And I want to read you something that Dean Heller, Republican

senator from Nevada, said today on a conference call that has now been

reported, a conference call to Nevada Republicans. And this is certainly

an inside look how the men certainly of the Republican Senate see this. He

said weve got a little hiccup here with the Kavanaugh nomination, well

get through this and well get off to the races.

And so, for him its a little hiccup.

RICHARDS: No, exactly. I mean, look, she would be coming before a

committee that included Senator Lindsey Graham, who has called this a

drive-by shooting. We certainly have heard from Senator Hatch who thinks

somehow shes just mixed up.

So, its not that shes coming before a group of people who are impartial

who actually want to get to the truth. If they wanted to get to the truth,

theyd let the FBI investigate this as shes asked. But instead, theyre

trying to jam this nomination through as weve seen. And when you look at

Merrick Garland who, of course, was nominated and spent 300 days trying to

keep from actually entertaining his nomination.

So I think that this is a committee that is already stacked against her

politically, and they are looking to jam her, to bully her. And I think

shes wise to be really smart and thoughtful about how she goes through

this process.

ODONNELL: I mean, to say we have to have you here on Monday at 10:00

A.M., but oh, by the way, make sure you have all of your whole written

statement for us Friday at 10:00 A.M. is to say we dont want your best

testimony, we dont want you prepared, we dont want you rested, we dont

want you to get outside the bubble of madness that youve been captured in

by the glare of this story since it became public. And theres Susan

Collins encouraging all of this. Susan Collins is encouraging all of Chuck

Grassleys bullying here.

RICHARDS: Its been very discouraging to see what Senators have said and

treating her with suspicion as opposed to someone whos actually trying –

coming forward and doing her civic duty to talk about someone whos been

nominated, not just for an average judgeship, for a lifetime appointment to

the Supreme Court. And I think the important thing too, Lawrence and I

know youre picking up on this because every woman are paying attention.

And if anyone on that committee thinks that women arent noticing this,

they should just wait until November 6, because women are upset. Theyre

sick of seeing women bullied. Theyre sick of seeing women not being

treated with fairness and listening to our stories. So I hope the

Republicans on this committee are really, really thinking carefully about

how they treat this woman.

ODONNELL: Celine Richards, thank you very much.

RICHARDS: Yes, good to see you again.

ODONNELL: Really appreciate it.

RICHARDS: Thanks a lot.

ODONNELL: And when we come back, more on the FBI investigation and why

Brett Kavanaugh is afraid, apparently, of talking to FBI agents because

lying to FBI agents is a crime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ODONNELL: Before Professor Anita Hill testified to the Senate judiciary

committee accusing Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment in the Supreme

Court confirmation hearing, the president of the United States, George H.W.

Bush ordered the FBI to investigate Professor Hills accusations. The FBI

interviewed Anita Hill about those accusations. The FBI interviewed

Clearance Thomas about those accusations and filed a report which was

immediately handed over to the Senate judiciary committee.

The president ordered the FBI to do that investigation because the chairman

of the judiciary committee Joe Biden called the then White House Counsel C.

Boyden Gray and demanded an FBI investigation and the Republican White

House Counsel immediately agreed, of course, that there should be an FBI

investigation.

The Trump White House Counsel Don McGahn is now the man shepherding the

Kavanaugh nomination through the Senate. He is at Brett Kavanaughs side

every minute of the day, but Don McGahn is no C. Boyden Gray so we dont

have an FBI investigation. And Donald Trump has no idea what the job of

the president is and so we still dont have an FBI investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REPORTER: Your reaction to Ford calling for an FBI investigation? Will you

order one?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, it would seem that the

FBI really doesnt do that. Theyve investigated –

REPORTER: They would if you ask them to, Mr. President.

TRUMP: Theyve investigated about six times before and it seems that they

dont do that.

REPORTER: They will do it if you ask them to. Would you consider asking

them?

TRUMP: Well, I would let the senators take their course. Let the senators

do it. Theyre doing a very good job. And really, its up to the Senate

and I really rely on them. I think theyre going to do a good job.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: No, its not up to the Senate. An FBI investigation of a

possible rape attempt, in this case, is actually up to the self-confessed

sexual assaulter who is currently the president of the United States.

Joining our discussion now Jill Wine-Banks, a former assistant Watergate

special prosecutor and also joining us Joyce Vance, a former U.S. attorney

for the Northern District of Alabama and a professor at the University of

Alabama School of Law. Both are MSNBC legal contributors.

And Jill, you have a situation, two people in a room in high school talking

about what happened in that room. One says, “He tried to rape me”, and the

other one says, “Nothing like that ever happened” but only one of them

wants an FBI investigation. What does that tell us about these two

peoples approach to finding the truth now?

JILL WINE-BANKS, FORMER ASSISTANT WATERGATE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR: It says a

lot about it. What it says is one of them knows that the facts will

support her and the other one is afraid what the investigation will show.

Otherwise, both of them would be asking for the investigation. And there

were three people in the room, not just two and all three need to testify.

Although, right now the investigation in front of the Senate is a hoax and

a sham. It is totally unfair. It is structured with the senators already

having said, “Well, shes mixed up. I dont believe it happened.” Thats

not how we should be going into a hearing. It needs to be a full and fair

hearing. It is a not a he said-she said. It is not two witnesses. It is

all the witnesses that the FBI can find through a thorough investigation

before the hearing starts.

Thats what we need. Thats what justice demands. Thats what truth

demands. Its what respect for women demand. And women will be listening

and will be watching and will vote in accordance with what the Senate does

now.

ODONNELL: Lets once again let Orrin Hatch of 1991 prove to you tonight

that the Orrin Hatch of today is lying about there being no time for an FBI

investigation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ORRIN HATCH, (R) UTAH: Im not going to be happy with just an ethics

investigation. I dont think anybody is. I want you to order an FBI

investigation. I want an investigation by real appropriate non-Senate

staffers. I want some people who arent affiliated with the Senate to look

into this matter because I think thats the only way we even have the

slightest chance anyway of getting to the bottom of it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: And Joyce Vance, today, Chuck Grassleys saying, “No, no, no.

The Republican Senate staffers on the committee are the best investigators

for this.”

JOYCE VANCE, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, he certainly made the right case

for it way back when. Theres no doubt that the FBI, the professionals

thats conducting background investigations have a role to play here, and

keeping them from playing that role is in many ways obstructing this

investigation and keeping the senators who will have to vote to confirm

Judge Kavanaugh from having critical information that they need to fulfill

their constitutional duty.

The FBI does this quickly. Everybody whos worked for the Justice

Department has seen a rush come through on a judicial confirmation

investigation. They can do it expeditiously. It wont delay

unnecessarily. And at the same time, it will give Dr. Ford the time that

she needs and the time that she deserves, quite honestly, as a non-lawyer

whos never testified on the Hill before to prepare her testimony, to

understand the process and to appear so she along with every other witness

and all of the information that the FBI uncovers can be presented to

senators.

ODONNELL: And Jill, there were two reasons why the Bush White House

ordered the FBI to investigate Anita Hills accusations. One was they

actually had some confidence in their nominee and that their nominee was

telling the truth. And the other was they couldnt possibly expect the

public to allow this confirmation to go forward or the Senate to go forward

without an additional FBI investigation.

WINE-BANKS: I think thats true but in this day of alternative facts,

which are really lies, there is no such thing. Thats whats happened and

they now think in the White House that they can get away with this. And

that would be an outrage. We need to have the investigation. It is

something that is so much deserved, and we cannot let her be more abused.

I remember the Anita Hill hearings and Rachel Maddow played the tape of the

hearings recently, last night I think, and its appalling. Its totally

appalling. And if we want to have some independent source do the

investigation, I recently served on a Pentagon committee looking at sexual

assaults in the military. We have an entire system to look at assault

allegations, sexual assault allegations. The military lawyers and

investigators are very well prepared to do this kind of investigation as an

independent source and they should be called upon.

ODONNELL: Well, lying to the FBI is a crime. Dr. Ford knows that. Brett

Kavanaugh knows that. One of them is not afraid to talk to the FBI and

only one of them. Jill Wine-Banks, Joyce Vance, thanks for joining our

discussion.

And when we come back, President Trump seems to be very afraid of losing

Brett Kavanaugh as his Supreme Court pick and we will find out whether

Brett Kavanaugh will make it through, and well then find out whether Jeff

Sessions will make it through to another year as attorney general or

whether the presidents attack on him today is the beginning of the final

days of Jeff Sessions as attorney general.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ODONNELL: Tonights good news is Donald Trump doesnt think that he has

an attorney general. And thats good news because hes not supposed to

have an attorney general. The United States is supposed to have an

attorney general. The question is does the United States have an attorney

general? Or maybe the question is how long will the United States have an

attorney general?

President Trump told the Hill in an interview published today, “I dont

have an attorney general, its very sad. Im so sad over Jeff Sessions

because he came to me. He was the first senator that endorsed me and he

wanted to be attorney general and I didnt see it. And then he went

through the nominating process and he did very poorly. I mean, he was

mixed up and confused.”

“The Washington Post” is reporting tonight from leakers inside the Trump

White House that the presidents latest attack on his attorney general,

“Was also a raw expression of vulnerability and anger from a president who

associates say increasingly believes he is unprotected.”

We will have more on the unprotected president and the attorney general he

hates after this break with Jill Wine-Banks and Joyce Vance.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ODONNELL: Today the president basically said hes going to fire his

attorney general after the midterm elections and then rush a new attorney

general through the confirmation process before the Democrats take over the

Senate in January if the Democrats win the Senate in the midterm elections.

He didnt, OK, use exactly those words.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: Im disappointed in the attorney general for many reasons and you

understand that.

REPORTER: Are you going to fire him? Are you going to fire Jeff Sessions?

TRUMP: We are looking at lots of different things.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: Joining our discussion now, Jill Wine-Banks and Joyce Vance who

are back with us.

And Joyce, John Weaver who is a prominent Republican strategist tweeted

today that he has spoken of two senators in the last week saying Jeff

sessions definitely fired after the November 6 elections.

VANCE: Its an incredible irony that the presidents first supporter has

fallen from grace. There is no disguising whats at work here. The

president has never appreciated the fact that Sessions recused from the

Russia investigation, wanted a lawyer who would protect him, more of a

consigliere than an attorney general. And thats not what he has.

ODONNELL: And Jill, this means Robert Mueller will be effectively removed

from office or fired by the new attorney general that the Republicans rush

through there. That new attorney general will take control of the Mueller

investigation.

VANCE: Well, presumably he will or she but that assumes that that person

also had nothing to do with the campaign and nothing to do with any

Russians because if he or she did, then that would require a recusal also.

There was no question that Jeff Sessions was legally required to recuse

himself. And what the president wants is he wants his old lawyer Cohen who

is a fixer to be the lawyer at the Department of Justice and that is a

total misunderstanding of what the role of the attorney general is. And I

think its a shame for America that we cant count on the Department of

Justice for justice, for unbiased, lined justice.

ODONNELL: And Joyce, Robert Mueller has to see this coming as of tonight,

if not sooner. What precautions can he take with his investigation,

assuming he will be effectively relieved from duty after Jeff Sessions is

fired?

VANCE: The Mueller investigation wont end if Robert Mueller is fired. He

is very carefully. He planned it. He and Deputy Attorney General Rod

Rosenstein tentacles for this investigation in attorneys offices. We have

seen prosecutors in Southern District of New York, weve seen cases in the

District of Columbia. There are other offices that might conceivably have

jurisdiction.

And the reality, Lawrence, is that once an investigation is commenced,

prosecutors and agents just dont give up on it. Theyll continue moving

forward. This case will continue. Mueller could even possibly have

indictments under seal that would be launched when appropriate after he

left. So there is very little the administration can do to shut it down

just by naming a new attorney general.

ODONNELL: And Jill, I know this is something you worry about as Watergate

prosecutors. What happens if President Nixon fires the whole group? But

it doesnt seem like there is much you can do in anticipation of that.

WINE-BANKS: Well, there is, actually, a lot that can be done but theres

one major step which is that the grand jury that is now hearing the

evidence has inherent authority to issue a report and that the chief judge

of the District of Columbia court can order the jury to continue its

investigation and can allow it to reveal the evidence. It would be, in

effect, a roadmap to impeachment which is what we had in the Watergate case

where we named the president an unindicted co-conspirator and gave the

evidence to the House judiciary committee. But this could go public, and

thats one very good way of going ahead with it.

ODONNELL: I continue to learn something every time I shut up and listen

to the last word legal team. Jill Wine-Banks and Joyce Vance, thank you

both for joining us tonight.

Tonights last word is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ODONNELL: And now for tonights last word.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SETH MEYERS, HOST, LATE NIGHT WITH SETH MEYERS: Following an accusation of

sexual assault, Supreme Court Justice nominee Brett Kavanaugh visited the

White House today for the second day in a row. Its the first time an

accused sexual assaulter has gotten in the White House without the

electoral college.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ODONNELL: Seth Meyers gets tonights last word. “THE 11TH HOUR WITH

BRIAN WILLIAMS” starts now.

END

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